Wednesday, October 12, 2011

Dirty Little Secrets-- I Guess You Could Call It A Sequel

This is the original postCovering Another's Sin. I think it states pretty well what the philosophy is and why people believe in it. 


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     Recently I saw a blog where a whiny woman was angry with her father. She took herself to putting all her father's sins on display. Everything he had done against her that she could think of seemed to be put out there for the world to see. Sure, maybe he did some bad things. Maybe they should be taken to the law. I don't know. But one thing I do know is that she's walking around just like Ham who saw his father's sin and then went around telling everyone. Honoring one's parents is very important. It promises blessings. When one dishonors their parents it promises curses. We must be like Shem and Japheth who turned their backs and covered their father's nakedness. They honored him, even though he wasn't perfect. They covered his sin. The exact opposite of what this woman is doing.

     One thing that did surprise me was how many people feel bad for her. Ham's son Canaan was severely cursed for what his father did. Many generations were cursed because of this folly. Maybe the situation is bad. But disobeying the express command to honor one's parents is much worse. Honor takes different forms. Maybe wisdom says to stay away. If they are murdering and raping people on the weekends you are called by the Word of God to be a witness against them. But do we run around laying out their sins for the world to see? No, no, no, no, no. And I pray I never fall into this myself with any of my family or friends.

     I struggle with honor. I like to think I'm right all the time, an intellectual pride. But I need to honor. I feel it's so important. So many lives are ruined by the dishonor of parents. Fornication, robberies, murdering, etc.. Yet we still see the rebellion against authority as a good thing.

     Let's be ones who are honorable. Trustworthy friends that others can rely on should be our goal. It's pretty rare nowadays.

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And this is the post I wrote about the whole thing. Dirty Little Secrets.

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Andrea's 1st Comment on Covering Another's Sin:
Daniel,

I disagree with this philosophy of covering another's sin. There are many things wrong with it, but I just want to address the practical aspect.
It's dangerous. You said that "trustworthy friends that
others can rely on [are] ... pretty rare nowadays." Actually, they are all over. They are the reason children are sexually abused by their relatives for years and nobody knows. They're the reason psychopathic men are able drive their wives quite literally crazy with emotional abuse, or perhaps it's a psychopathic wife. They are the reason spouses can cheat on each other throughout their entire marriage. They are the reason murderers feel comfortable telling their drinking buddies about how they plan to kill their wives. It's not trustworthy or honorable to conceal the truth like that. 



Daniel's First Comment on Covering Another's Sin:
That's why there are around 50% of divorces/separations? (1996/2000 census bureau [I didn't actually notice this for awhile, but these statistics are over ten years old! Did anyone else catch that? The numbers have gone down since then, by the way.]) I would call 1 in 2 people breaking a vow that they determined to be "for life" an utter failure. Their supposed to be friends for life.. Just imagine the number of people who sleep around and break it off. Much higher. Etc. Etc. I don't see friendships being strong at all. If you look at statistics. Maybe in your own personal life/personal friends you have strong friendships, so I grant that. But that doesn't speak for the rest of the culture.

I agree with you that you should report sexual abuse, murders, etc. etc. I actually said that in the post. It's part of loving your neighbor. Loving your neighbor means you don't go goo-goo-gah over someone and not reporting them when they rape someone. No, you love your neighbor (i.e. the person who was raped) and report the evildoer. Whether he's your friend or not. (And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” ~ Luke 10:27) It's part of loving God.

1 Peter 4:8 ~ "Love covers a multitude of sins." This is also love. We cover. We don't throw it out there for the world to see.

But honestly Andrea, if you're going to live a life telling your friends all the gossip and about how so and so sucks because of such and such reason, (Like this study claims as being very prevalent - http://bit.ly/rmkdjM) I don't see friendships growing and prospering. (Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O LORD, my rock and my redeemer. ~ Psalm 19:14)

If I were to get married and I told everyone how my wife sins I would be an absolutely despicable husband. Everyone's a sinner. Everyone's going to make mistakes. Telling the whole world about them. No. no. no. (A dishonest man spreads strife, and a whisperer separates close friends. ~ Proverbs 16:28)

I do understand where you're coming from though, your blog made it quite clear. ;-P I would honestly recommend you spend more time on topics in Philippians 4:8 (Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.) But it's your blog and your message. So go forth young padawan and honor God. :-) 

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The following comments were never published.  Sent, yes. Not published.



Amy's First Comment on Covering Another's Sin:
Daniel, if you know Andrea at all, you would know that she is the MOST trustworthy person that you will ever, ever meet.

She knows me the best of ANYONE in my life. I tell her things that, if she wasn't in my life, nobody would know. She doesn't run around saying that "so and so sucks" because blah blah blah.
You're always commanding people not to "accuse" others, and there you go smearing Andrea's character with falsities.

If you're using "you" in a general sense, be more clear.

I also wanted to address some of the points you're trying to make. Where your philosophy takes a major downhill turn and exposes how dangerous it is, is where you said, "Sure, maybe he did some bad things. Maybe they should be taken to the law."

You shrug off the fact that this man was doing illegal things, and more than likely to the detriment of others. But you wave your hand and shrug; "Whatever."

(I know that American law isn't perfect, but it is in place to protect. Doesn't the Bible also say, "Honor the king"? Would that mean honor his laws, as well? Also, people that are doing harmful things are always breaking God's law.)

You said that love covers a multitude of sins. This is true. But "cover" does not mean "cover up," or conceal. Cover means live with. Be gracious about. And it means mild, simply *annoying* sins. Not sins that have a victim.

1 Peter 4:9 says, "Be hospitable to one another without grumbling." That's the context of this. Cover their sins; be hospitable without grumbling. Don't whine or feel offended when you have to clean up after someone else, or when they're inconsiderate towards you, etc.
Not, "Hide their sin. Shut your trap when you should be speaking up."

On another note, "a multitude" does not by any means mean "all."
And notice how it's a DISHONEST man that spreads strife.

Yeah, HONESTY is often going to make things uncomfortable. But is that in and of itself a reason to shut up? Look at Jesus and His ministry, and you should see that the answer is a resounding NO.

That's the difference, Daniel. Gossip is to spread lies and rumors, and useless info.

Telling the TRUTH, with love for GOD and our neighbors, is never, ever, ever a bad thing.

You're promoting being the silent bystander. When there's a victim, Daniel, that goes against everything God could want for His children.

Here's the thing. There are things that I will keep quiet about.
If I find out that a friend is an alcoholic or using drugs, or struggling with something on a deep level, and I discern that they are not putting anyone else in danger, that is a secret I will keep.
If however, I find out that someone is abusing their child, mentally, physically, emotionally, what have you, that's something that I will escalate.

I know you're talking mainly about parents here.
Here's what I don't understand. I know we disagree about the patriarchal thing. I do not agree that fathers and husbands are on almost equal footing with God, and are mediators between their children and wife, and God.

But here's where I feel like your thing becomes totally hypocritical. I've seen where children go to the elders to "report" their father for not doing family worship every day, and are patted on the back for doing so. Why is that okay? Because it aligns with your teachings? That, to me, is utterly disrespectful.

On the flip side, it's not okay to go to social services to report the constant bruises from over-zealous spankings? I know that's considered the height of dishonor.

Please explain.

 


Andrea's Second Comment on Covering Another's Sin: [Note: Not verbatim. Text was lost.]

Daniel,

Please do not blow my arguments out of proportion and try to make me sound unreasonable. I did not even mention divorce and I certainly did not blame this philosophy for all of it. I also did not recommend running around saying, "so-and-so sucks because..."

I would also like to know what you mean by "etc., etc." ("You should report sexual abuse, murders, etc. etc.") [Note: Actually, you did not really mention this in the post. "Running around murdering and raping on the weekends" describes full-out serial killers and serial rapists. Sexual abuse in forms other than actual raps was not mentioned.] What sins, besides serial murder and rape, do you consider serious enough to expose? What about a sick, sadistic sense of humor and control? What about pathological lying? What about plain old untrustworthiness? Please provide a full or partial list of things you would consider reporting to the authorities or to potential victims.

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 It ended here. What do you guys think of this? Do you have anything to add? Additional biblical references or something? I would really love to hear what you all have to say on the subject. Please comment. 



Seriously, comment. Don't ghost-read this post. Tell me your opinion!

6 comments:

  1. Hey Andrea,
    So this is Kristina, your cousin. I agree with Amy's post the most from what I've been able to glean. There are certain things that don't need to be shared. When there is a victim, that's when it becomes more than just the one person doing the action. When it's the one person, they are doing something stupid such as drugs, alcoholism, that is their business. When it becomes other business is when, for example, the drunk mother beats her small. Then some serious sharing needs to happen. And in response to Daniel, it depends on the situation of your wife's sins. Is she a poor cook, or is she verbally and physically abusive when she gets a hold of liquor? There is a HUGE difference which has not been specified here. Because the difference there is between sharing gossip, and protecting a victim (yourself). And the woman you spoke of may have been saying petty things such as "my dad's a jerk sometimes." Which is very different from "when my dad gets angry he hits me", and calls for different actions.

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  2. Kristina, you hit the nail exactly on the head!
    I love seeing your thoughts on these things. =)

    P.S- miss you.

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  3. Looks good. I could snip and snap at some things and waste all of our time, but nothing that won't lead into a waste of everyone's time. All that I want to see in this area is more honor and less selfishness. This subject does need a longer paper, delving out all the circumstances and such, but I don't have time for one right now. I'll make a note to get to it eventually.

    P.S. Sorry about using the you phraseology. It's a term I use a little too liberally.

    I'm thankful there are those of you who are willing to think through these things.

    Peace.

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  4. Andrea,

    I used to post over at Daniel's blog. Everything got deleted. Not very "honorable" in my opinion. I also find it ironic that Daniel, in his blog post, was actively uncovering the daughters "sin" of disrespect for her father. (His definition of sin, not mine.) That is extremely hypocritical. It is the same for the radio show he works on. The host's are always pointing out other people's "sin" and "apostasy" while they command respect and honor. I have also noticed that they never give the other side a chance to respond.... hmmm.... kind of like deleting comments on a blog.

    Anyway, I doubt that Daniel or anyone from that culture will engage in any real discussion, so until I am proven wrong I'm not going spend a lot of energy trying to get them to see the light.

    As for the text of Scripture, I would debate that covering sin is what the text is talking about. It is kind of like people who think that the point of the story of Adam and Eve is why humans wear clothes. It is a horrible interpretation that is as far from the original audience as could be.

    Take a look at the Bibles use of clothing. It is about a "right standing before God". To be naked before God was to stand exposed or condemned. Adam and Eve were "naked and not ashamed". Just like a little child, there is innocence of conscious.

    The priest's had to wear a special garment so that their nakedness would not be exposed on the steps up to the altar to make the sacrifice. The priest's had very specific clothing. This clothing motif is all throughout the Bible.

    The Noahic narrative is about a de-creation of the covenant world. (Yes, I would suggest it is local not global but that is another conversation. No doubt I will be called and apostate or compromiser by people like Daniel but since they won't engage in study or discussion I think I have a pretty strong argument.)

    Notice that Noah becomes a man of the "land" after the flood. (Just like Genesis 2, man to work the ground.). Noah has a fall just like Adam and Eve. It involved food. There is an aspect of maturity because God gives Noah more responsibility and Noah takes the fruit of the vine and makes wine... God's people are growing up but still not there.

    As far as the Ham issue, there is a lot more going on there than Ham looking at Noah passed out naked. Just take a look at any scholar and you will see what I mean. The issue is what Ham did, not what Noah did and trying to pull out a pet "application" regardless of the overall story is simply nihilistic. I actually had one person at "Repentance" tell me I was sinning because I showered with my little kids. I "allowed" them to see me naked. WOW... where do you even start with someone like that.

    The great thing is that none of us can be found naked anymore. We HAVE the righteous white robes of Christ. We have been fully and finally CLOTHED! That is the bigger story going on.

    For someone to expose hypocrisy, even if it is someone in authority or a father or elder is honoring to God and ultimately it is honoring that father because following God is the highest form of honor to our parents.

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  5. I miss you too Amy!

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  6. Andrea,

    Check out Genesis 38. Not only does Tamar expose her father-in-law's sin she deceives and blackmails him. (She is also listed as righteous and makes it into Matthew's genealogy!)

    Daniel's "exegesis" is incredibly full of holes. That is why he doesn't allow anything but positive comments on his blog. He can't defend his ignorant interpretations. When the Emperor has no clothes on the easiest thing for him to do is to intimidate those under him into "covering" his nakedness. There are some benefits to being a tyrant...

    (BTW, my comment which was only asking if there were any other comments to his post has not been posted either.)

    Have fun with Gen. 38! (psssst... it's rated R... aaahhhh)
    Blessings,
    Micah

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